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periwinkle

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #1 
I just made some beads using my Devardi glass.  This is the first time I haven't scorched the Lt. Champagne D3 when making a bead.  I was soooo excited!  After annealing, as I was cleaning the champagne bead with a light smattering of 96 COE frit, I noticed an incompatibility crack.  This is so frustrating!!  I was so happy to have a beautiful non-scorched bead, but near the edge I can see a jagged incompability crack within the bead.  It hasn't cracked off yet, but it's a matter of time.

The beads were put right into the kiln after I made them, but unfortunately the incompatiblity is occuring.  This also happens with goldstone that is not made by Devardi.

With some of my other Devardi beads, the frit looks scorched after I anneal the bead. I am using 96 COE frit.  After I add the frit, it looks fine while molten and then later on when it is annealed, I see nasty blackish/grayish spots where the frit is.  The frit is burning for some reason on Devardi glass.  This happens more frequently than not.

Recently I tried a new color, D83 SOP Moonstone as a base.  It was very nice and shaping up beautifully until I added Val Cox's Wild Roses frit.  As soon as I added this frit, the Moonstone started to get those ugly brownish burn marks.  It's kind of a webbing, but it's burnt.  I was saddened that the frit reacted this way with the base color.  Until I added the frit, the base was totally perfect.

For some reason,Wild Roses frit gets black and ugly with many of the Devardi colors.  It did the same thing on SOP Valentine's Day Red and the bead cracked in half, even though I put it straight into the kiln right after making it.  However, I have also had the burning happen with one Effetre color and Wild Roses.  I was really surprised that it happened with Effetre.  

On the plus side, none of my Devardi colors have been scorching lately.  I chalk this up to finding that very narrow band of heat that Devardi flows within without scorching or underheating.

I do love so many of the Devardi colors, which is why I keep using it, but it's very disappointing to keep having these results.  I like the frit that I use and do not wish to have to purchase more frit just so I can use it with Devardi.

I'm wondering if the company that makes Devardi glass is getting feedback on what lampworkers are experiencing so they can improve their glass?  It would be nice to know that incompatibility issues are being addressed.  Now it might be argued that the break in the D3 glass was not an incompatibility issue, but when glass cracks every which way, that's what it is.

On the plus side, I had one Devardi color D133 SOP Dark Purple, anneal very nicely with the Wild Roses color.  I almost didn't recognize the bead though, because the "Dark Purple" annealed to an opaque light lilac.

I'm also wondering when Devardi is going to truly make translucent glass that anneals translucent and doesn't turn opaque?  But that is another issue...
Daniel

Moderator
Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 73
Reply with quote  #2 

Hi Periwinkle, thanks so much for your post. I am sorry you are having these difficulties. First, you must realize that Devardi Glass has a COE of 104. If you use Devardi with a COE 96 glass, you can run into incompatibility issues. This is true of all glass brands, and is a well documented issue. Mixing COE’s can be risky. That is why glass brands state their COE.

However, this is not to say that the two cannot be combined on a limited basis. If you would visit the Devardi Glass website and go to the Frit page, you will see that we (Devardi) offer several brands of COE 96 (reduction) frits. There are many sample beads that we made successfully with Devardi Glass and these frits, and pictures of the beads are included on the site. We haven't tested all the COE 96 frits on the market with our glass, but there are quite a few on our website that have been fully tested.

For a refresher, COE stands for Coefficient of Expansion. Each glass will expand and contract at its own intensity when heated or cooled. This expansion and contraction is measured and labeled by the number you see after the COE, such as 104, 96, 92 or 33. Mix different glass with different COE’s and you will end up with different contraction intensities within the bead when the glass is cooled. Of course, this can lead to cracking if the contraction stress is too great between glasses. Some glass brands can handle a minimal amount of mixing of COE's, as described in the previous paragraph.

Hope this helps with this issue.

To cover your second issue, Devardi Glass has been mixed and tested with just about every brand of glass on the market in the COE 104 range. Most combinations have been successful. You will run across some combinations that just will not work. This is true about all glass brands. Testing is always suggested first. If Wild Roses frit makes both Devardi and Effetre turn burned color, there may be a particular color or metal in the frit that is not working with the particular pigments in the Devardi or Effetre. There is no way for any of the glass companies to “improve” their glass so this does not happen. Changing the glass to make sure it works with the Wild Rose would only make it not successful with something else. All we can hope for is that most combinations between brands work. And that is the case with all brands. Most can be combined successfully if you keep within the COE range. Some can be combined on a limited basis outside the COE.

You did mention the “narrow band of heat” needed with Devardi Glass. This is true. Devardi Glass is a lower heat glass than some other brands. It is also a stiffer glass. As a result of this stiffness, beginners often attempt to heat it so it flows like other brands. That requires excessive heat, which can ruin the glass and lead to compatibility issues. Once you burn any glass, you change the chemical makeup of the glass, which can prevent it from successfully combining with other glass or even with itself. So this is definitely something to look out for.

I hope this addresses your issues and helps improve your results.

We do have several videos on combining our COE 104 glass with COE 96 brands, and also on combining our glass with other brands in the COE 104 range. Please visit our website and look in the menu system for those videos you can watch for free. Also, we would be happy to test any combinations you are having difficulty with to see if there is a compatibility issue, or a process method that can be altered. Feel free to send us a sample of another brand if you wish for testing.

As far as the Semi-Opaques turning Opaque when annealed, this can be an issue. We have found that annealing at higher temperatures improves this considerably. Some colors can change more than others. So I would try the ones that are giving you difficulties at higher annealing temps. You can anneal Devardi Glass as high as 1020 degrees. I have found that at 1010 degrees, most of the translucency change is minimal.  

Fine Folly

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 939
Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Periwinkle, and thank you for that info Daniel.  I wanted to add that 96 COE frit can be used with 104 but it is recommended that it be a small % of the total bead... less than 10% I believe I recall, but not sure.

This Earring Pair was made with SOP Lt. Blue and a Val Cox frit... I anneal low, at 950 or lower, so Semi Opaque Devardi glass usually stays opaque for me.  I like it though.

Try your combinations on test beads and see what works... that's the best way to not loose a lot of time and effort.  You will build us a library of glass that you like and work with that way.  Hope this helps a bit.

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SilverRiverGlassWorks

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Sonja
Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 297
Reply with quote  #4 
I will mention also that some colors end up with a black ring around them when you mix them.  This is especially true when you mix blues with ivory or even some whites.  Happens with other color combos too but its a long list.  I use a lot of different brands of glass and there are issues across all of the brands, its just the nature of the beast.  As you continue to try things and practice, you will find that you will have less trouble.  Of course, there are some colors that are just incompatible with others not matter what you try.  This is true across brands and across coes for that matter.
Fine Folly

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 939
Reply with quote  #5 
You are right Sonja, and I remember being shocked the first time CIM devited on me!  
periwinkle

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks for your reply, Daniel. I am well aware that Devardi's COE is 104, but sometimes it seems like it isn't.  That really is not the issue.  When I make beads using Devardi and frit, and yes, even 104 frit, I've found that Devardi often breaks.  Much more often than with Moretti glass!  I use the same amount of frit on Devardi as I do on Moretti.  

Just the other day, I used a 104 frit with the Yellow Gold transparent glass and it cracked as well.  It seems this particular color will not take frit of any kind.  It's really too bad, as this transparent color takes on a kind of translucent quality when it is annealed!  I'd love to buy more of it, but with the frit issue, I know I would be frustrating myself to try to use frit on it or even mix it with other glass.  Other Devardi colors did fine with the same frit.

As far as the SOP translucency issues goes, thanks for your input, Kristina.  Natasha suggested annealing at a higher temperature just for the SOP glass to keep it translucent.  So far, this has not worked to keep it translucent.  I tried annealing at 1010 as strongly suggested by Natasha, but I still just get the same opaque thing happening.  Now, if I do not anneal, the beads remain beautiful and translucent at times. But I really can't make beads and not anneal, right?  Not if I plan to sell them...I've found that some colors, such as the Dark Rose transparent D7, must be annealed at 1010 when I use both silver foil and Val Cox Cherry Blossoms frit.  Otherwise, the beads crack every single time.  This is very frustrating.  I can't tell you how many times I've made gorgeous beads with the D7 Rose and combined silver foil and Cherry Blossoms frit and then had the beads break after cleaning them!  When I use the silver foil on the Rose, it makes the coolest reaction, kind of a webbed ivory color that enhances the frit.  

With other colors, like Champagne Rose D3, anneling at the higher temp ruins the color.  I've used this color as a base for many beads. Yet, if I anneal the Champagne Rose at the higher temp of 1010, it turns the color a nasty burnt brown.  This has happened several times.  I'll put the lovely light color into the kiln with frit on it and I'll take it out later, and find that the Champagne Rose has turned a nasty burnt-looking brown.  It even looks like I overheated it, but I know this is not the case, because I'll see the streaks of black while I'm working it if I've overheated it.  What happens if I anneal it at the higher temp is that the whole bead seems to get cooked.  I've also annealed at the lower temp of 950, and the beads with frit remain the lovely light Champagne Rose color when I take them out, so I know that the lighter colors must be annealed at a lower temp.  

So what I'm finding is there is a lot of "pickiness" in the Devardi glass and how it is annealed.  Some colors must be annealed at higher temps to prevent breakage and others at lower temps to prevent burning. This is especially true of the lighter transparent colors, such as D3 Champagne and D34 Lt. Marine Green.  These are two colors I really love, but have had so many burning issues with - literally!!

Getting back to the issue of preserving the SOPs:
I still have not been able to preserve the lovely translucency of any of the SOP beads.  NOT A ONE.  The only way I know how to do this, as I stated earlier, is to not anneal the bead.  I don't know how annealing at 1010 keeps the translucency.  It simply has not worked for me.  While I'm working the bead, I can see the lovely translucency, but as it cools, I see it go opaque right before my eyes.  This happens when I marver the bead or press it.  Then I heat it again and the translucency appears again.

Daniel (or anyone else!), would you tell me the exact schedule from start to finish that you use for annealing to keep the SOPs translucent?  I can reprogram my kiln and hopefully get the same results!  Then I'll be singing the praises of Devardi glass!  I do like the colors that are available.  I love Salmon, Dark Peach, so many of the Marine Blue/Green colors, the Army Green and many many more.  I really love the misty SOPs on the rod.  They're simply dreamy!  However, it feels like they're teasing me.  

I find that the opaques are less of a surprise than the SOPs.  Same with the transparents.  Those always stay the same color as the rods, but with the SOPs, it's like opening a present and wondering what I'm going to find!

I absolutely love the SOP colors!!! But it is such a huge disappointment to pull the beads out of the kiln and not even recognize them because they've turned opaque and gone about 20 shades lighter than the color of the rod!!  
Fine Folly

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 939
Reply with quote  #7 
I don't know what other counsel you may get, but I understand the frustration when you want to do something with a particular glass and it won't cooperate.

I found with Devardi that I had to research out what works with what I do, and build a library of the colors in the various categories (opaque, transparent, etc.) that I can draw on.  They don't all work as I want, so I go to another color, or combination.  The great price makes it worth the research, so I do it. 

I would love to see some of you work!
SilverRiverGlassWorks

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Sonja
Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 297
Reply with quote  #8 
I will say that I have resigned myself to using the dk rose by itself, I usually wrap in fine silver wire then etch it.  It is a gorgeous color all by itself but it just does not want to play nice with anything else. 
SilverRiverGlassWorks

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Sonja
Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 297
Reply with quote  #9 
Here is an example of the dk rose transparent that has fine silver and has been etched.


Daniel

Moderator
Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 73
Reply with quote  #10 

Hi Periwinkle, I'm not really sure why you are having difficulty adding frit to our glass. As I mentioned in my earlier post, we have many bead examples on our website that we successfully added frit to, from COE 96 to COE 104. So trying to isolate the problem you are having may be difficult, unless it is some particular frit you are using or perhaps a process issue. I am a big frit user, as you may know from watching our videos. I’m not experiencing any such issues. So it just may be the particular frit you are using, or perhaps the process you use to apply it.

 

If you would like to send me a small sample of the frit you are using, I can try to duplicate what you are doing and see if I have difficulties. That might be the only way to solve your issue. Let me know if you'd like to do that. I would be happy to do some testing for you.

 

Yes, it is important to anneal your beads if you plan to sell them. That is the general rule. It protects the buyer for the long-term much better than beads that are not annealed. And yes, it can be an issue with annealing the SOP colors. They can change colors if the circumstances are not optimal. Two things: I have found that keeping the heat very, VERY cool when making beads with SOP's and then annealing at higher temperatures all but solves this issue with most of the colors. I have never found that using the higher annealing temperatures leads to the glass burning. These higher annealing temperatures are cooler than what the factory uses to make the glass, so it doesn’t seem that the annealing temps would lead to burning of the glass. I have a feeling you may be working the glass hotter than you think and hotter than it should be. The reason I am saying that is because most of the difficulties you mentioned, such as cracking, burning colors and SOP’s changing color, we experienced back when we first started with our glass. It wasn't until we greatly reduced our heat exposure to the glass that these problems all but disappeared. This might explain the problem you are having with the frit too, but I cannot say for sure unless I can test it for you. Anyway, this is a place to start. I have had some people write to me with special problems, such as combinations that wouldn’t work. After I got them to reduce their heat exposure, there was great improvement. Some of them thought they were working the glass cool, but found that it was not cool enough.

 

Also, try annealing a SOP glass rod. If it doesn’t change color, you know that your bead shouldn’t either. If the bead does but the rod doesn’t, you would know it is an issue of the bead-making process rather than the annealing process. Granted, some colors will still change when you anneal the rods. But many won’t. So the bead shouldn’t either of those rods that don’t, if kept at low temperatures when you make the bead, similar to what temperature is used when the glass rods are made. Additionally, at least if some of the rods do change color when annealed, you will have a better idea of what your bead will look like after it is annealed.


periwinkle

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #11 
Daniel,

I have put SOP rods in the kiln to preheat them and they have turned opaque.  In fact, they have become ruined after I've put them in the kiln for several hours.  The idea was to just preheat several rods so I'd have them ready.  The kiln's temp was 950.  I can send you a picture of the medium blue SOP as it was changed where it had been put into the kiln to preheat it.  The same thing happened with the pink SOP.  When I went to use the pink glass it looked strange as I was heating it and then I realized I'd preheated it several times and the chemical structure in it had changed as the glass just didn't look right.  I took another rod and used that without preheating (in the kiln) and it worked up fine and did not have the problem the preheated rod did.  I still turned opaque though.  There's a certain quality to the glass that changes - most likely a chemical change.

As far as the frit problems go, I do not have these issues with Moretti glass, at least not with the same frequency.  I might have 1 bead with Moretti glass break out of about 50, but with Devardi, it's about 30% of the beads.  The Devardi colors that have broken with frit recently are the D148 Opaque Turquoise; D152 Lt. Ivory; D158a Valentine's Day Red; D28 Extra Lt. Trans. Green; D4 Med. Lt. Champagne Rose; D6 Rose - this color only plays nicely with other Devardi colors; D24 Yellow Gold Trans.  This last color even cracked with 104 frit.  These are just a few of the colors I've catalogued lately.  I tried this same 104 frit on the SOP yellow and it worked just fine.  Many Devardi colors do fine with frit, but it's much more hit and miss with Devardi than CIM or Moretti.  I really don't want to send a sample, as I'd have to send too much frit.  Frit is expensive.  I'm sure you understand.  Besides whether you can or can't duplicate what is happening is not really the issue.  I'd like to know how to get Devardi to work for me.  Believe me, I have been cataloging and recording as much as possible about each of the colors so that I know what works well and what doesn't.  There are colors I really like by Devardi, but I'll just know not to use them with frit.  Many colors work just fine.  I don't know what you mean by a process issue with adding frit.  I've been working with lots of different frits for about a year now.  I've been lampworking about 5 years.  I know how to add frit to a bead.

My lampwork instructor explained breaking to me this way:  if a bead cracks in half in a pretty straight manner, that's usually improper annealing.  However, if a bead cracks all over in jagged ways and breaks into several chunks, that's an incompatibility issue.  Even if the bead has cracks all over and doesn't break, it's still an incompatibility issue.

As to using lower heat for the Devardi SOPs, in the past I had the heat so low the glass wasn't even moving.  I can certainly lower it, but then it can take 30 minutes to make a simple lentil that usually takes about 10 minutes to make.  Not exactly time efficient...The SOPs that are translucent, like the misty color green, D124 blue green SOP, D126 marine green SOP, D130a SOP lilac, moonstone white, and D133a dark purple SOP all go about 20 shades lighter and opaque.  I didn't even know the bead I'd put into the kiln was the dark purple SOP.  It surprised me as I had to look at it and remember it was initially a dark purple that turned an opaque lilac color.  The same thing happened with D124 SOP. I put it in the kiln and it looks like this gorgeous teal color, but it came out looking like an opaque turquoise.  Again, I didn't even recognize the bead!  I was extremely disappointed to see the very gorgeous 204a SOP Lime Green change colors.  This color is dazzling on the rod, so imagine my disappointment when I opened the kiln up and found this ugly opaque very light lime-colored bead in place of the beautiful bead I'd made!  Same with the D112 Misty Green.  I adore this color and it came out completely opaque and many shades lighter.

What is the annealing schedule you use for SOPs?  I am willing to try anything.  I have already tried lowering the heat for the SOPs in the past, but they still came out opaque.  However, I can try again.

The burning I have experienced with annealing is with the lightest transparent colors.  If I anneal at 1010, they burn, but if I anneal at 950, they're fine.  Just yesterday, I made a bead with the D4 champagne as the base and put some frit on it.  I annealed it at 950 and the base color came out perfect - except that the bead has a crack in it - and I'm pretty sure it's from the frit.  As soon as I make a bead and I often press my beads, I reheat the bead a bit after pressing.  I know that pressing chills the bead.  After reheating it a little so as to warm the bead, but not lose the pressed shape, I put the bead into the 950 degree kiln.

I'm willing to try a plain pressed bead with D4 champagne.  I'm betting it won't crack or break without the frit on it.

Recently, I have seen the D3 Champagne turn an ugly brown after annealing at 1010, but when I made the same bead with the same frit and annealed at 950, the bead came out the correct color.  I thought this was an interesting finding.  I have been keeping my torch as low as possible and using a very feathery flame.   I am able to replicate this finding, so I do believe that the lightest transparent colors really need a lower annealing temp.  This is true of the D34 Trans. Lt. Marine Green. It also happened with the D28 Extra Light Green Trans.

I have noticed lately that my lighter transparent colors are coming out beautiful - no ugly black marks or darkening of the color.  This gives me hope.  But I'd really like to be able to use frit on the colors and not have the bead break!
Fine Folly

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 939
Reply with quote  #12 
I found this article interesting, and the link is below.  It discusses the issue of viscosity between the same COE glass types, and why it may affect how they play together.

COE Versus Viscosity

Now if COE was all you had to worry about, life would be grand in the bead-making world.  But sometimes you'll find that two glasses with the same COE don't play nice together.  And the culprit is usually viscosity.

I have a hard time explaining viscosity with how it relates to glass, so I'll use an example with foods.  Take a tablespoon of milk and a tablespoon of honey and pour them into a bowl.  The milk pours out quickly, while the honey takes its time oozing out of the spoon.  The honey is more viscous than the milk.

(Okay, it's not a perfect example, but now you can get a mental image of viscosity.)

A good glass example of viscosity is comparing  Effetre pastel white against Lauscha clear.  Effetre pastel white melts fast and can get drippy very easily.  Lauscha clear is much stiffer and is more like honey when it melts.

While I don't know for certain, I suspect that viscosity effects COE; in other words, a more viscous glass has a lower COE.  And within a glass type (example, glass with a COE of 104), the tolerance is generally 2 points.  So what that means is that a glass can be labeled 104, but actually have a range of between 102 and 106.

So, if you combine a 104 glass that's actually 102 and a 104 glass that's actually 106...you get incompatibility and a cracked bead.

Is it Ever Safe to Mix COEs?

I want to say first off is that there is a lot of controversy over this.  Some say that you never, ever want to mix glasses of two different COEs, even in minute amounts.

Others say that it's acceptable to mix a tiny bit of a leaded glass (usually a frit made from a 94-96 COE glass) with, say, a base bead of 104 glass.  The emphasis on the word tiny.

The only thing I can say about this is from my own experience as a bead-buyer and a bead-seller.  I have beads from around 2002 that have some frit on them that appears to be the 94-96 glass that are unbroken.  I have made beads that include a tiny bit of 94-96 COE glass that for 5 years haven't cracked or split.

Does that mean they won't crack or split 20 years from now?  Don't know, but you can check back for a report then!

In my case, I work mostly with COE 104.  Therefore, I label each and every rod that is not COE 104 with its color and COE.  Glass can all look the same after awhile; best to play safe.

REF:  http://www.lovinglampworkbeads.com/tag/104-coe

Ken Richey Beads

Registered: 12/18/11
Posts: 395
Reply with quote  #13 
Kristina:
I have had all kinds of cracking problems but have worked Thur most of them.  I also have found that a clear core can help a lot but not all the time.  I have also come to accept what ever comes out of the kiln as far a color.  I can say that I preheat devardi rods in the door of my kiln and a lot of the rods will be lighter in color when heated and stay that way when the rod cools.  Then when melted in it seems to go back to the darker color.  The devardi has such beautiful colors that I can put up with it especially when one considers the cost of the glass.
ken

Fine Folly

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 939
Reply with quote  #14 
Me too Ken.  I work a color and anneal it and see what color it turns out to be based on how I handle and anneal.  I also test combinations before creating work.  Then I use it based on that research.

For the price I have found that researching the colors and how they come out and THEN planning how I want to use them is my best approach.

I do understand it can be so frustrating when you want to just get it and use it, without testing, but that's the cost of the low price and the intense colors I guess  

Ken Richey Beads

Registered: 12/18/11
Posts: 395
Reply with quote  #15 
Hi Periwinkle: I feel your pain on the testing and compatibility. I really like the colors from Devardi so I just kind of work a lot at finding the combo's that work. they do have some great color.
JBD
ken
periwinkle

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks, Ken.  I'd really love to see those SOP colors stay SOP.  They do often stay that way if they are mixed in with something else, but not if used as a base color.  That's the rub.
Daniel

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 73
Reply with quote  #17 

 

Hi Periwinkle, the only thing I can tell you about the frit is that the particular brand, color or COE you are using may not be compatible with Devardi. There are some frits that are not, as with all brands of glass. As far as process issues, I mean how hot you get the glass, fuel mixtures used, how much it is worked and so forth. If the frit works well with Moretti, but not with Devardi, it could be that it is not compatible with Devardi, or it could be something in your process that upsets the balance between the glasses. That could be a number of factors, regardless of how experienced you are. Devardi Glass works differently than other glasses. Even with experienced lampworkers, there is a learning curve with our glass. I can’t tell you exactly what process issues may be impacting your beads without a sample of the frit. If the same thing happens to me with that frit, I would guess it is a compatibility issue. If I don’t experience the same issues, then it is likely a process issue and we can look deeper into that. I can reimburse you for the frit if you ever decide you’d like it tested. That is likely the only way I can get to the bottom of it.

 

I really can’t explain the rods getting ruined in the kiln, as I have left mine in my annealer for hours without issues. Some change color, but as Ken says, usually go back to the original color when melted. If you have a separate pyrometer, perhaps double check the temperature in your kiln. That is where I would start. And perhaps rotate the rods with fresh ones so they don’t stay in the kiln that long.

 

For the SOP’s that change color on you, I agree that it may be best to document what colors they change to, if it is consistently changing to that color. Then use them for that particular outcome. I have noticed though, the outcome of the SOP’s as far as the color is concerned (and translucency) is definitely a process issue. Change that process, and the colors and translucency will be different. In fact, I have become so familiar with the outcome of most of the SOP’s, I can change my process (heat, fuel mixture, length of time worked, etc.) so I can reach the desired outcome upon demand. I can even create beads that are opaque inside, translucent to the top and transparent on the top of the bead, all with the same SOP rod. (Yes, you can get transparent from the SOP’s.) This has taken a while to learn, even though I’ve been lampworking for years. There is just a learning curve, and it is fun along the way, although some things don’t come out as expected. But that is part of the fun.

 

periwinkle

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #18 
I've had this thought recently: maybe some of the breaking issues I have after beads have come out of the kiln have to do with bubbles in the glass. Devardi glass comes with lots of bubbles and sometimes I just can't get all of them out. In fact, usually if I have only 3 or 4 bubbles in a transparent bead, that's rare! The other day I was using a new color, Dark Orange trans. and it seemed very shocky as I was heating it. I had it way in the back on the flame for several minutes, but huge chunks kept breaking off of it.

Later on, when the rod was cool, I just happened to notice a huge long bubble running through the middle of the rod. Those pull lines that we often see can be air trapped in the glass. I could see this was a huge pocket of trapped air as the end of the rod where it shocked off had a "hole" in the middle of it!

I even pull stringers of the fatter rods to try to get the bubbles out, but I still find them in my beads! Bubbles can definitely cause beads to break! This may also explain why some of the Devardi beads with frit break and some don't.
Daniel

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 73
Reply with quote  #19 
Hi Periwinkle, No, bubbles will not cause glass to break. If it would, glass rods with bubbles would break as they were made also. Much of the older glass bottles had many bubbles and were perfectly fine. I have made tons of beads with bubbles without breakage. And we also make many hollow beads, which is essentially a giant bubble inside a bead. You're thinking though, and that's good.

But you did mention something that is giving me clues into your lampworking process. As I mentioned before, it very well could be part of how you are handling the glass that is leading to your difficulties. If you are having difficulty keeping the Trans Dark Orange rod from shocking when you apply it to your flame, that tells me your oxygen is likely set much too high. That might be why you are scorching beads, ending up with brown spots on the beads, running into cracking problems and ending up with discolored SOP beads. The high oxygen is much too hot a flame for Devardi Glass. I use a minor mostly, and turn the oxygen down so the flame is very feathery. Once the bead is formed, for certain things, I turn the oxy up to get a pencil tip. But this is only for short periods and not used on the entire bead. Maybe see if you can make some adjustments in this area. It may solve some of your issues.
Fine Folly

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 939
Reply with quote  #20 
Periwinkle, I think you talked about the transparent yellow or gold, and I wanted to offer that I found the Transparent Champagne nice to work with using 96 COE Frit.

I started using it to make Mermaid hair.  Some other yellow or gold transparents cracked and gave me fits, but the Champagne worked really nicely.  I don't know if you've tried it, but you might want to.  You can see it on this Mermaid and the mix is at least 50/50.

Just wanted to let you know.  Hope things are going better for you with the Oxygen info.

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periwinkle

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #21 
Hi Kristina,

Yep, I've tried the Champagne.  Have all three colors of it!  This was one of the colors I really liked by Devardi.  This and the Salmon got me to buy Devardi in the first place.  Yet, the D3 & D4 are giving me fits!  Every time I use the D3 with this one frit, my beads break!  Only rarely do I get a bead of this color that doesn't crack and that's with only a few frits.  I just recently stopped scorching this color.  I have some beads in the kiln now and one is Champagne with a different frit.  It looks so good with this one frit called Forever Spring.  I bought it in the Garage Sale on LE, so I don't remember who makes it.  I just can't seem to get most frits work with it.  The D3 Champagne is a lovely pale color, but it does not like frit.   Very few 96 frits work with it.  The D4 is slightly more forgiving.  That's the rub about these colors.  They're wonderful, but as soon as they're combined with frit, they crack.  Many of my beads made with D3 have incompatibility cracks all over.  The bead has not broken, but is cracked internally - a true sign of incompatibility, not shocking.
Fine Folly

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Posts: 939
Reply with quote  #22 
Periwinkle, have you tried 104 frits with these colors?  It might be worth it since they are so appealing.  

I am just now trying the Devardi Boro.  I love sculptural work, so I'm giving it a go.  

Please post pics of what works for you.
Daniel

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 73
Reply with quote  #23 

Hi Periwinkle, I’m sorry you are still having difficulties with the glass and frit. I just wanted to say before I begin that I am here to help. I am not at all being critical of your work. It is my guess that you are a very skilled lampworker and have some beautiful pieces. But I just want to add some insight that may help you deal with these issues. I know Devardi Glass very well. I have done so much testing that I would guess I know the glass better than the factory. I am not boasting; it is just a fact. So when someone says they are having certain issues, my brain immediately goes to work trying to find a solution, or trying to remember something I have experienced that may be causing the problem.

 

When trying a new glass, if things don’t go right, most people immediately blame the glass. But I have found so many times that most problems people may experience with our glass are just process issues. I have tried literally many hundreds, maybe thousands, of frit combos with our glass with success. So I know that when someone says they are having difficulties, it is probably not the glass at all, but rather something in the process of making the bead. That is not to say that the lampworker that is experiencing problems doesn’t know what they are doing. In fact, more experienced lampworkers run into more problems with our glass than beginners because the try to handle our glass as they do their usual brand. Sometimes it is difficult to undue old techniques.

 

Anyway, I went to work on our D3 Champagne Rose you are having difficulties with. Your quote: “The D3 Champagne is a lovely pale color, but it does not like frit. Very few 96 frits work with it.”

 

Below are 5 beads I (and Natasha) made this morning using our D3 and other brands of 96 reduction frits.  We had no issues. I asked Natasha to make one of the beads just to add a different variable. Now please ignore the bead shapes and the photos. These were quick test beads and just some quick photos. 

 

All the beads have a base of our D3 Champagne Rose. The first bead I used Field of Flowers Frit, which has a combination of 6 different COE 96 Reduction frits of three different brands. Three are opaque colors and three are transparent colors. The actual colors are our secret, but there were no compatibility issues using this combination frit.

 

The second bead picture is COE 96 Kugler's Dark Copper Ruby Frit. The third one is Natasha's bead and she used COE 96 Q-colors Iris Green Frit. The forth is COE 96 Q-Colors Iris Gold Frit. The fifth one is COE 96 Q-Colors Light Copper Ruby Frit.

 

These were all annealed at 970 degrees F, and there were no compatibility issues. So the only thing I can conclude is that there may be something you are doing that is leading to your COE 96 frits cracking with our glass. I am still leading toward the amount of heat you are using, or perhaps the level of oxygen. Have you tried to reduce the oxygen to see if you still have these issues? This is where I would start. I would also check your kiln temps. We have tested some people's new kilns and have found them to be as much as 100 degrees off. This is not usual, but we have run across it. So it can lead to issues.

 

Please let me know if I can help in any way possible. I would really like to solve this for you.

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periwinkle

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #24 
Daniel,

Thank you for finally telling me what temperature you use in your kiln!  I'm suspecting that the annealing is playing a big part in this.  I keep my torch very feathery, as I know if I don't, the glass burns.  With the paler colors, like D3 and D34 Light Marine Green, these start to show smoky burn marks after a short while if the heat is too concentrated.  It seems, that if I do not give the bead even heat all over,and one spot gets heat just a little bit too long, then a burn mark develops.  The darker transparents are more forgiving in this area.  It may just be that they are darker, so the burn doesn't show as easily.

I've found that to keep my beads from cracking, the higher annealing temps help.  I was annealing my beads at 1010, as recommended by Natasha.  This was the recommended temp to keep the SOPs translucent.  

When you mentioned that you anneal at 970, that will probably make a huge difference!  When I've made beads with D7 Rose, if I anneal at the higher temp of 1010, they have a better chance of making it.  I've successfully combined Val Cox's Cherry Blossoms and Wild Roses frit with D7, if annealed at 1010.  If the beads are annealed at 950, my regular annealing temp, the beads always crack in half along the mandrel.  This was very frustrating as I was also using silver leaf, which gets expensive!

The one problem I've been finding is that if I anneal D3 Light Champagne at 1010, it comes out an ugly brown color, which is NOT from overheating.  I put it into the kiln looking very pale and lovely and out it comes without cracks, but with a nasty brownish tinge to it.  As if the higher temp just cooked the glass.  I've said it before, but it must bear repeating:  the bead looks fine and the correct color when I put it in the kiln.  When I take it out after annealing at 1010, the bead's color has changed.  This happens when I am using D3 as a base with frit on it.  If I anneal at the lower temp and do not use frit, the bead's color does not change or get cooked.  I have seen this happen repeatedly with D3.  I was annealing it at 1010 so I wouldn't have cracking, but I will try 970 now.

In fact, I'd been thinking about raising my kiln's temperature just for these beads.  It's only 20 degrees, but it makes a difference with Devardi.  I will let you know how it goes.

People have expressed interest in pictures of my beads.  I have quite a few beads made with Devardi.  So, I've included a few pictures.

The first bead is a mandala bead I several months ago.  I used the Blue SOP for the base.  This bead was annealed at the higher temp and is one of the very few that actually kept the translucence.  Unfortunately, this color scorched so this bead is unsaleable.  You can see the burn mark on the left side of the base.  There are also small black burn marks around the middles of the stacks of dots.  If you see some black that is where the burns are.

The second bead is a pressed bead all made with Blue SOP.  This is the same color as the previous bead!  Note that this bead went opaque.  This bead has 96 frit and has not cracked.  The blue colors seem to do better with frit than the champagnes.

The third bead is another mandala made with Dark Peach SOP.  The Peach always goes opaque for me.  In beads that have cracked I can see where the inside of the bead was more translucent than the outer layers.  This bead combines Moretti, CIM and Devardi glasses.  It's one of my favorite beads!  This is why I fell in love with Devardi colors!  I used Grasshopper, one or two of the Devardi Champagnes and some CIM greens.  The little dots on the sides of the raked stacks are made with Salmon.  I just love how the colors blended so beautifully.  I was heartbroken when two of the dots popped off on both sides of this bead! I usually store my beads in boxes with other beads and I think when they get moved, the delicate features, like dots and other raised decorations get knocked off.  

In the fourth picture, I used D4 Med. Light Champagne.  Notice how dark the base color is.  It could be that the frit darkens it up as there is some brown in this frit.  The frit I used is 96 and was made by MGA Designs, a now defunct business.  This is one of the few Champagne beads that has not cracked with frit.

The fifth bead was made with Dark Burgundy for the base and several Devardi colors.  I used D4 Champagne, Mango and Dark Mango, Yellow Gold Trans and dots are of Burgundy.  Correction:  The dots on top of the stacks are with a rare color that looks like a dreamy peach color, but goes kind of yellow.  Since I was using a reduction flame, this color got muddied up.  (I'd originally posted that the dots were Army Green, but I could see they were not!)

The last bead is made mostly with Devardi colors.  I think the base is Devardi SOP Blue Green or SOP Marine Green.  It looks like it was a SOP color, but it's hard to tell.  The raked dots are of several Devardi colors.  One of them is the SOP blue.  The SOPs often look gorgeous when they are mixed in and stay translucent, but when they are the base color, they often go opaque.  I'm guessing because a lot of heat is required of the base color as it is molded into the desired shape.  Dots don't get nearly so much heat.  The top dots which you only see a little bit are made with the Blue SOP.  I love the color of the Blue SOP, but it is extremely sensitive to heat!

I have more mandala beads made with Devardi that are just stunning.  This is what made me fall in love with Devardi, but I haven't been able to duplicate them.  It seems I'm adding too much glass so my dots are getting too big.  The higher the dot stacks go, the more likely they are to burn as they get too close to the flame.  This is just something I need to work on more.  

I'm struggling right now with not burning the dots and still keeping the base of the bead warm enough.  Lately, I've had several big hole beads crack in half after annealing them and I figure it's because the base got too cool.  On the other hand, I had a mandala bead I made with a Moretti pink that got so badly devitrified from too much heating that the bead is not saleable.  I wanted to be sure the bead did not crack in half, as another pink bead did while I was working it in the flame.  The whole bead just cracked in half and popped off the mandrel. 

Unfortunately, the pink is very hard to move, it's so viscous.  Then if heated too much, it devitrifies.  I've come to the conclusion that opaque Moretti pink cannot be used as a base for a big hole bead.  I've had so many beads get too cool or get overheated and then devitrify.  I'm trying to find the happy medium.  For some reason, I've been struggling with my big hole beads lately.  It could be because they are getting so large.

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Fine Folly

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Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 939
Reply with quote  #25 
Periwinkle, nice pics and I'm so glad you are going into detail about what is working and what isn't.  

Your mandala beads are so neat! 

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